Production

[Alan Durant]

I haven't quite got up to speed with what Dark Mountain stands for and the name unciivilisation worries me, as much of what I think of as civilisation I would like to keep.
Does the idea of production for need and not for profit fit with the ideas of supporters of the Dark Mountain project? As a simplified example would not the production of solar panels be a good idea if coupled with the discontinuation of production of private cars. Such a radical change would have to be done under a system of social ownership of such industry as we decide we need. The elimination of production of those things that we do not require or would actually be of benefit for us to do about would at the same time reduce energy demands.
There is much both natural and man/woman made that we should cherish. What I think we need is the power to decide what we want and need and not to have these decisions made for us by a handful of individuals and groups who can only make decisions based on profits and power.

Alan

[Alan Durant]

Hi Maurice, it does seem that an acre of woodland could provide for a household. I would still be a little worried about smoke pollution though. If you took another ten or twenty million acres away from arable what effect would this have on food production? We have to consider that not every landscape will support trees or at least will not support good growth. Perhaps persuading people not to live in insular family units might help, not so many houses to heat. What about cutting firewood and transportation? I'm inclined to think that advances in insulation, passive solar, (yes  even in England), hold out as much potential as woodland. Having said this I'm all in favour of planting more trees.

Don't forget to campaign against the self off of forestry commission land.

So I'm off to plant some trees, though I have to admit they are fruit trees as I don't have enough land for a wood lot.

Best  Alan

[Alan Durant]

Dear Wolf Bird

You might consider how the flippant dismissal of the fate of 45 million people might look to people who ideally we should be looking to win over. Not only this but if you happen to be one of those adept people who survives any catastrophe that may befall how many people do you think you will be able to kill as they come to your farm looking for food.

It seems you like the idea of covering everything with leylandii. However biodivesity loss has far reaching consequences many of which we can not predict. Its not just a question of giving up prettyscenery for the necessity of growing what you hope will solve the problem. We've created enough problems by destroying biodiversity in the first place.

Your belief in market forces is touching. Don't hold your breath. Market forces mean a sytem driven by making the most money possable this is frequently not the same as supplying a need.

There is an argument for organic growing. The reason it dosn't happen more is because it is labour intensive and presently mechinisation is cheaper, that is if you don't take into account unemployment benefit ect. for potemtial agricultural workers.

You would not be able to produce enough food using draught animals. They have to be fed as well, even when they are not in use. Also if you use an ox you'll find it eats more, generally has a shorter life, produces less milk and has to be rested in the later stages of pregnancy. Ok an ox can be a bull but it won't grow at the same rate if it is worked.

I prefer the increase in market gardens (organic) employing much higher numbers of people. But we have to be careful Pol Pot had a similar idea and see how that ended.

None of these are easy questions to answer and probably the best way forward is to win people over rather then waite for them to conveniently die. Perhaps a "take back the land" movement would motivate them. When people control the land they can work out the best way forward from practicl.e experiance. We would need to decide together the maximum ammount of land one person can control and establish cooperatives to share equipment etc.

Currently in Hungary most people in the countryside use wood as fuel. Currently wood production is meeting demand, allegedly, but if you look round here it is hard to believe.

We produce a reasonable agricultural supluss. However in this village maney, especially the old can not afford to adequately heat their homes. Hungary however has a much less dense population thab a great many other countries.

Lets not think that a desimated population will solve all our problems. Lets try and be more constructive.

Best  Alan

 

[Maurice Spurway (Mozz)]

This is a great debate you guys (Alan/Wolfbird) are having.

We are really at the nitty gritty end of the dilemma.

But could you calm down a bit.  There's no real need to take things so personally.  I find Bohm Dialogue, a useful guiding technique here. ..  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_Dialogue  (The idea is to bring forward ideas without the ego getting in the way)

M

[Alan Durant]

Dear Wolf Bird,

high horse not so good for ploughing, you'r better of with a Welsh Cob.

The fact that people can be clueless and mislead is surly the reason we should be trying to win them over. If you feel that this can be demeaned by calling it PR fine. Call it anything you want, the point is can we convince people to try and lead a sustainable existence.

I  think its harsh to call my wish that billions shouldn't die sentimental. I would like to continue my existence. Sure the planet would not miss my going. If huge numbers die its likely we will all go with them. The planet some would argue would be better off. But most of us have an impulse to survive and I'd kind of like to know how things will turn out if only in the near future.

I note with interest the figures you included. The population here in Hungary is going down and I like to think that this can be mirrored elsewhere. There's a whole debate to be had about population control, perhaps later. Will it happen quick enough? Will people migrate to other planets? We don't know.

If I misunderstood the bit about Laylandii then I apologise, but you didn't say any more about biodiversity.

The bit about killing people was not trying to suggest that this is a course you would wish to take but merely to illustrate that anybody with food reserves might find themselves with this sort of choice to make, faced with a starving population.

As far as market forces are concerned with cooperation we could all decide what each of use needs and what we can contribute. For me this is something very different to market forces which are based on the monopoly of products, land, materials and means of production.

You ask what I would do. First I think we should take power from the hands of the small elite who run the world for their own narrow interests. After that we can make meaningful decisions about how to proceed.

Lastly I don't really see why you are offended by my opinion. I'm trying to work things out too. However, you do seem to want offend me. Just tell me why you think I'm wrong. The whole point of pages like this is to see other people opinions and say what we think. If I wanted a shouting match I'd go down the pub and insult somebodies mother.

Best  Alan

 

[Alan Durant]

Hi Maurice, I had a look at the Bohm dialogue page on Wiki and I see what your getting at. It is important to always re-examine your beliefs. However I not sure about the suspending your judgement. How do you consider the merits of differing points of view? It must also be pretty difficult to rid yourself of the your beliefs and opinions. This is not to say that you shouldn't try and understand other ways of looking at things..

 

Best  Alan

[Maurice Spurway (Mozz)]

Suspending your judgement:

I think this is important. As human beings we develop a sense of judgement, in order to enable us to make decisions based on what we feel is right.  That's seems quite natural.  But we have no way of knowing objectively whether it IS "right".  When we meet someone with differing opinions, our first instinct is "defend" our ideas.  "Suspending judgement" is about considering the possibility that the other person might have a point.  (It's only a temporary suspension - to switch off judgement altogether would be pointless I think)

M.

Alan Durant said:

Hi Maurice, I had a look at the Bohm dialogue page on Wiki and I see what your getting at. It is important to always re-examine your beliefs. However I not sure about the suspending your judgement. How do you consider the merits of differing points of view? It must also be pretty difficult to rid yourself of the your beliefs and opinions. This is not to say that you shouldn't try and understand other ways of looking at things..

 

Best  Alan

[Alan Durant]

Hi Maurice, yes I agree with that. Suspending ones judgement seems a good starting point.

Best  Alan

[Alan Durant]

Hi Wolf Bird,

why if you think everything is hopeless do you bother contributing to this discussion?

I hope that you will continue and perhaps I'm fooling myself into thinking that you still have a wish to make a difference.

We are up against a machine that wants things to stay as they are in the mistaken belief by our overlords that their money will save them from the collapse that we face. They have the tools of propaganda which makes it hard to convince people.

As far as having answers is concerned I'm cautiouse some times. On the one hand you can be considered arrogant on the other of offering no suggested solutions.

As a point of interest if land were in the hands of communities we could grow those things we need as opposed to the things that make the greatest profit. Organic growing has been shown to frequently increase, sometimes dramatically, yields.

Exponential population growth is of course a problem. But why not look at the reasons that populations are going down in some places to see if we can learn something, even though time is our enemy.

Lastly I met Father Christmas in a bar in Amsterdam and I can assure you that he does exist. He likes Bombay Sapphire Gin. He was very old and not in the least bit grumpy.

Best  Alan

[Alan Durant]

Hi, Wolf Bird,

thanks for the links I haven't had time to look at them yet as the weather has changes and I'm busy planting and sorting out stock. I think what you mentioned boils down to crop rotation, companion planting and getting plenty of muck into the soil.

As far as anominity is concerned I'd rather stand up and be counted. I've never been good at keeping below the radar for good or ill.

Best   Alan