Did things used to be better?

[Daniel Ross]

For some years now I have been sort of a Luddite. Occasionally I get into arguments about this with people, and hit a wall when they accuse me of dreaming of a non-existant pre industrial romantic ideal. So I was wondering can anyone here provide some evidence that things used to be better?

My views on this, as many views on complex matters can be, have been cobbled together somewhat haphazardly from experiences, evidence and various intuitions.

It began just over 5 years ago when I began an undergraduate course at a supposedly fine British university. It was maybe the most obvious time ever to be a Luddite. In the space of a few months filesharing and social networking had gone from being the preserve of a few nerds to being totally ubiquitous. 5 years prior a laptop had been a rare luxury for an undergraduate; affordable only to the rich for writing their essays on. Now it was very much essential. I watched those around me spend a great deal of their waking lives in their bedrooms, downloading films, clicking aimlessly on facebook, playing video games, and watching anonymously hardcore pornography; all of this was an easy alternative to talking to people they didn't really know. Facebook became the new social reality, breeding a new kind of vanity and self consciousness never before seem; literally 2-dimensional. I wondered how many similar revolutions had gone before,  which I had not been present to witness.

I read a few Kurt Vonnegut essays, and suddenly I was seeing the world through a Luddite's eyes; half convinced (which is a long way to be convinced of such a radical idea) that society could not cure itself of its ills until it returned to a more basic, primitive way of life.

But is there any evidence? you need evidence; one to prove to others that you are right; but more importantly to not actually be wrong yourself! Are these just the broodings of a dissaffected boy; or the naiive romanticisms of an idealist? Part of me blames not technology but the pathological agencies that wield it.

Or have I got it all wrong? is progress simply gruelling and problematic; afterall technology is an attempt by humans to solve problems. You see a problem and solve it. Thats natural. Thats right. Perhaps.

[vera]

Eh, cheap shot about currency devaluation, no? What I was trying to say, if you are trying to crash Morgan, and succeed in doing damage, then the gov't will bail them out and that's that. I don't see an effective strategy for doing them in. As long as they can use gov't handouts as insurance against failure, they will not fail.

 

Gotta think about the rest. :-)

[vera]

"I have no idea how an 'anti-power' meme could be inserted into culture in any long term effective way. In fact, I don't know how to change people, en masse, in any way at all."

I am not a storyteller. I see my job as working out the "practical logic" of non-domination. But let me take a stab at it, and see if my (off the cuff) attempt at a story makes any sense... (?)

Here goes:

How does a toddler become a walker? By walking.
How does a child become a reader? By reading.
How does a person become a non-dominator? By relating to others in non-domination ways.

How does my society become a society of walkers? By each person (starting with myself) walking, and helping non-walkers walk.
How does my society become literate? By each person (starting with myself) reading, and helping non-readers read.
How does my society become a non-domination society? By each person (starting with myself) relating non-domination, and helping others do likewise.

You know…. the true and tried Paolo Freire thing:
First, become one.
Then, each one teach one.

[Daniel Ross]

guys sorry can you write this on a new thread. i get emails whenever anyone replies to this, which i can't turn off, and its clogging up my inbox. unless you have anything succinct and on-topic that is.

[Daniel Ross]

yea sorry wolfbird, theres just too many links and thoughts for my ickle brain. i have had 120 emails now to be fair.

[vera]

Eileen, the Venus Project seems to be a cultish group pushing technosalvationism. Just look at how they imagine the earth to be in their pictures... mega-concrete everywhere, let's pave over the earth...

[vera]

The proof of the pudding is in the eating... :-)

 

[vera]

Very interesting point, which popped up recently in another discussion I was in. I tend to think that we do decide our fate in small ways that add up. Which of course is very different from the "view from the top" that social engineers love to take. I was recently reading a well put argument that the Russian revolution was made possible by all the peasants who -- each on his own -- decided that it was time to quit being a soldier and come home. The rates of desertion were vast, all added up.

So I would say, the "we" is misleading. But there is the real "I" that adds up. Future doesn't just happen. It is created from all the myriads of small acts of current human beings. You and me included.

 

Eileen, it may be a good idea to start a new topic if you want to discuss techno-salvationism. This thread was about Luddism.

[vera]

So what could happen is this forum gets overrun by techno-trolls who make other conversation impossible, since the admins are not paying much attention and are not even dealing with porn trolls. Who will prevail? It's all about energy flows. Regardless, though, I am feeding mine to unciv. :-)

[vera]

Geez, Eileen, I was not calling you a techno-troll! I was speaking of a hypothetical situation.

I was recently in a forum that experienced an onslaught of the transhumanist types rushing in with their nightmares. I was playfully suggesting it could happen here too. I am sorry that my words came through in a different way.

In any case, I don't see anything useful in the Venus Project. I don't like the Brutalist-like vision, nor the techno-utopian who is the leader. But I do have a question to ask you. How do they propose to bring about the economic alternatives they favor? There are any number of "pie in the sky" groups out there, New Economy, steady state economy, etc etc... not a clue how to get it done in the face of power. So, I am curious...

[vera]

What worlfbird said. Besides, I am betting 10 bucks against a potato that most Zeigeist fans do not have a clue how a so called "resource economics" is supposed to work. Ideas are dime a dozen... especially the vague ones.

Prove me wrong, Eileen, and explain to me how resource economics functions. ? I went to the Venus Project website for an explanation and all I got was lots of wonderful promises, and no explanation.

[vera]

"At the other extreme, we have the 'Jump, you fuckers, jump !' school of thought..."

 

Tee hee hee! :-D That would be Kunstler, McPherson and Stoneleigh, right? Just another way to manipulate people, IMO...

Most of the humans on earth now are domesticated, it seems. But some of us dream of wildness... The Venus Project dreams of even more and more mechanical slaves...

[vera]

"I am perfectly well aware of what resource economy is. What we have we exchange with others for what they have and those that do not have things exchange knowledge or abilities. Teachers would teach, in exchange for what they need, and others would do similar things. There would be stores where we would be able to take something that we need to use, use it and return it if it is not essential for our daily life, like luxuries, etc. "

 

That, is truly mindboggling. This is what my countrymen in central Europe did in the 15th century. In a Hussite place called Tabor. Then it fell apart. The old "primitive Christian" dream.

Then, centuries later, communists too dreamed of a land where "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need." Except they had no clue how to make it happen, and brought about a totalitarian nightmare instead.

Don't people pay attention to history anymore? I guess unprincipled people use the age-old lures, happy to see them work once again.

I would love to see a sharer world. But I am quite certain it's not going to come from some middle class intellectual top-down social engineer spinning yet another grandiose scheme. If it will be born, it will come from grassroots people who go ahead and figure out how to do it with a few friends, and their way will spread. Like you say, wolfbird, it starts with each one of us...